Bill Belichick is Overrated! [ES Thread]

Bill Belichick is Overrated
There is no way that this jerk could possibly be considered the greatest!

I hijacked another thread on Extremeskins the other week.  Boy, I gotta stop doing that.

Anyways, the original thread, based on a discussion of The Redskins Front Office, can be found here:
http://es.redskins.com/topic/411158-bruce-allen-scot-mccloughlan-jay-gruden-and-all-that-stuff-like-that-there/

In it, a poster by the handle of DC Lumber Co. made a comment in passing on Belichick & the Pats, which I pounced on with the quickness!  What follows below are my comments, followed by the replies which lead to a nice little discussion on the matter.

(If you would like to follow the conversation at its source, then please go here:
http://es.redskins.com/topic/411158-bruce-allen-scot-mccloughlan-jay-gruden-and-all-that-stuff-like-that-there/?page=136)


  On 8/11/2017 at 9:51 PM, DC Lumber Co. said:

 

The amount of disrespect Jay gets from the fanbase is absurd to me. The only coach to have the balls to go against Snyder’s wishes (RG3) and keep his job. And not only keep it, but go on to become the only coach to receive a contract extension for this franchise.

Since Jay’s arrival we have stuck to a cohesive long term plan of roster building, drafting homegrown talent paired with low-risk, high-reward free agents. He is now without a doubt one of the best offensive minds in the NFL to boot.

We don’t have to overpay people to come here anymore. DC isn’t the leagues go-to for their last big payday anymore. It blows me away to see players saying they chose the Redskins over money/other teams because they believe in what the Redskins are building now. The constant in all of this the past few years has been Jay, and I for one, don’t take it for granted.

Jay is very much so a leader, and just because he isn’t stoic and possesses a sense of humor unlike Belicheck doesn’t make him any less of a leader. People act like we have to copy another team exactly in order to have any success when in reality Belicheck isn’t half the elite talent evaluator people think, and wouldn’t be regarded in nearly as high esteem if it weren’t for Tom Brady.

Great post @DC Lumber Co..  I also have come around on Gruden & now am a solid supporter of his Program.  As I see it, Jay (and by extension, Snyder & co.) will never get the props he deserves until The Team takes off in The Standings.  But we have seen a sea change in how Ashburn operates since his tenure began.  And while Gruden isn’t necessarily the common denominator in all of the changes, his time here does represent a new way in which Washington goes about its business.

That’s positive!

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  On 8/11/2017 at 10:05 PM, DC Lumber Co. said:

Yes. Is it not strange that it’s about the length of time Tom Brady has been in the league?

Getting lucky with a handful of draft classes can change the perception of a team very quickly. Just ask Scot, with 2 out of the 3 teams he has built becoming contenders after 3 drafts and the verdict still being out on the Redskins depending on how we fare this year. The 49ers we’re awful after the Steve Young era, and The Seahawks were even less respected. The Seahawks are still held in high regard but The 49ers also showcased the flip-side in how quickly a team can fall from grace.

The Patriots get a pass on so many whiffs and Tom Brady, much like A-rod, can make up for holes in a roster. I vividly remember how much everyone was drooling over how much smarter Belicheck and the Pats were than the rest of the league the year they had what seemed like every pick in the 2nd round. It was quickly forgotten that every single one of those 2nd rounders we’re busts.

And let’s face it, even Belicheck could have never expected Tom Bradys success. Only Mike Shanahan would be audacious enough to gloat about that sort of draft steal as if he knew it all along haha.

This brings up an interesting conversation I had with some buddies at work yesterday.  I am thoroughly convinced that Belichick is NOT an all-time great coach: he’s a Good Coach that benefits from having a looooong run with a once-in-a-generation talent at Quarterback.

AND New England has benefited from playing in an historically weak AFC East also.  That matters, because if the Patriots can pencil themselves in as Division Champs every year, which gives them an edge over their Conference Rivals (since they get that Home Playoff Game) AND an easier path to The Super Bowl.  Yes they still have to Win it, but the road to that game is much smoother.  It matters.

  On 8/11/2017 at 11:55 PM, Tsailand said:

23 years ago, right before they switched owners.

Little known fact, in Kraft’s six seasons without Belichick, they had four winning seasons where they made the playoffs, including two division wins and a Super Bowl appearance.  Which is more than Synder has done in 18 seasons.

The idea that the Skins are on the verge of magically flipping into a functional franchise is delusional.  Unless you’re Snyder’s oncologist and you know something we don’t.

How did this happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_England_Patriots_head_coaches

It happened because Robert Kraft hired Bill Parcells to build a moribund cellar-dwelling Franchise from the ground up.  And Parcells did so, to the point of getting the Pats to The Super Bowl – where they lost to the eventual Champion Packers.  So the team was already built.  That’s when the reins were handed to Pete Carroll.

Carroll Won the Division once, but underwhelmed & was fired after 3 Seasons (I think).

Enter Belichick.  He already had a Hall of Fame Tailback (Curtis Martin), a Franchise Quarterback (Drew Bledsoe), a Veteran Defense, and a hidden jewel holding a clipboard (you know who).  WoW!

After flaming out in Cleveland, that was the hand he was dealt in Foxboro.  AND he was given the Headset while Gillette Stadium was under construction. Can you say straight flush?

Yes, he can Coach.  But this all-time great stuff has to stop!  Just like Phil Jackson, this guy benefited from all-time great talent.

Edited  by Diehard Otis


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 But I wasn’t finished there.  I felt the need to expound on the topic, including my criteria for a Great Head Coach

Okay, so I can’t let this go without putting things into their proper context.  Bill Bilichick is widely considered the Greatest Coach of this generation. [Sigh] Fine.  But to place him in the same company as the Legendary Coaches of The Game is preposterous!

Yes, Winning is critically important.  We know this.  But otherwise, what constitutes a Legendary Coach (besides Winning)?

I would contend that a Legendary Coach accomplishes 3 things besides Winning Football Games:

1) They build something from nothing.  Most Coaches at The NFL level can Win with talent.  John Harbaugh comes to mind off the top of my head.  But a truly talented Coach can build a Powerhouse from ashes.  And all of the truly Legendary ones have done so.  How can you tell?  Because when they were hired, the Franchise in question was a longtime doormat (let’s say 5 or more years of cellar dwelling).  So the cupboard was bare when they arrived.

2) They establish a long-term contender.  Once the foundation is built, they contend for all of the marbles perennially.  Aside from the occasional “down year”, this type of Coach’s teams are always Conference and/or Super Bowl Contenders.  Pretty obvious stuff.

3) They contribute to the game – Innovation.  Aside from Winning, I believe that this is an all-time Coach’s most indelible trademark.  The Giants of the game have changed the game in some innovative way (such that those innovations are taken for granted today).  That’s what helps a guy stand apart from his peers in my book.

So who fits this criteria?

Paul Brown

George Halas

Vince Lombardi

Tom Landry

Chuck Noll

Don Shula

Bill Walsh

Joe Gibbs

Yes, there are other Great Coaches in NFL History.  But in my opinion, these men I have named specifically stand above the rest.  And Bill Belichick is better than NONE of them.

Edited  by Diehard Otis


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And Taylor 36 disagreed

  On 8/13/2017 at 4:18 PM, Diehard Otis said:

This brings up an interesting conversation I had with some buddies at work yesterday.  I am thoroughly convinced that Belichick is NOT an all-time great coach: he’s a Good Coach that benefits from having a looooong run with a once-in-a-generation talent at Quarterback.

AND New England has benefited from playing in an historically weak AFC East also.  That matters, because if the Patriots can pencil themselves in as Division Champs every year, that gives them an edge over their Conference Rivals (since they get that Home Playoff Game) AND an easier path to The Super Bowl.  Yes they still have to Win it, but the road to that game is much smoother.  It matters.

How did this happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_England_Patriots_head_coaches

It happened because Robert Kraft hired Bill Parcells to build a moribund cellar-dwelling Franchise from the ground up.  And Parcells did so, to the point of getting the Pats to The Super Bowl – where they lost to the eventual Champion Packers.  So the team was already built.  That’s when the reins were handed to Pete Carroll.

Carroll Won the Division once, but underwhelmed & was fired after 3 Seasons (I think).

Enter Belichick.  He already had a Hall of Fame Tailback (Curtis Martin), a Franchise Quarterback (Drew Bledsoe), a Veteran Defense, and a hidden jewel holding a clipboard (you know who).  WoW!

After flaming out in Cleveland, that was the hand he was dealt in Foxboro.  AND he was given the Headset while Gillette Stadium was under construction. Can you say straight flush?

Yes, he can Coach.  But this all-time great stuff has to stop!  Just like Phil Jackson, this guy benefited from all-time great talent.

 

 

You are inaccurate in your assessment of Belichick.

First, Belickick did not flame out in Cleveland.  Did you read the article you linked, because it actually says the opposite. It makes the case that had he not been stupidly fired by Modell, the Ravens would have had possibly five SB championships. He actually built that team up to be a contender.  When he arrived the team was abysmal, just as they are today.  They were 3 – 13 the year before Bill got there, and went 7-9 his second and third year, and 11-5 his fourth year, a playoff year.  You’d have to go back to 1986 to find a Browns team with as good or better a record.  The following year, Modell announced during the season that he was moving the team at season’s end and the team shut down and went 5-11.  That’s when Bill was stupidly fired.

Parcells gets a lot of credit for a guy that never won anything without Belichick on his staff and has only two SB rings to Belichick’s seven. Anyone who would take the Tuna o er Bill is either just a huge Pats/Belichick hater or doesn’t know the history of these two men as coaches.  Parcells expected Belichick to take over the Jets for him when he quit, yet again, on a team, but Belichick was smart enough to see that the Jets were just another Browns and instead went to the Pats who did not have Brady holding the clipboard when he got there as you stated above.  Sure they had Bledsoe, but he underperformed most of his career.

Since becoming the starter, Brady has missed 19 games.  Belichick’s record in those 19 games is 13-6.  That includes going 11- 4 in 15 games that Brady was out from game one after tearing his ACL, yet, even at 11-5 for the season, the Pats missed the playoffs.  Not sure that shows a weak AFC or even AFCE when an 11-5 team doesn’t make the playoffs.  Yet, Brady has never won a game without Belichick. Brady is great, probably the GOAT, but Bill has built stellar defenses as a position coach/coordinator, and turn **** into caviar in both of his head coaching stints.  He deserves a lot more credit than you are giving him in your post.


                                                                       nfl-redskins2.GIF.d27e31b0a1c25b277083252b52d00e0a.GIF

     “Failures are expected by losers, ignored by winners.” – Joe Gibbs

To which I replied

  On 8/13/2017 at 5:10 PM, Taylor 36 said:

You are inaccurate in your assessment of Belichick.

First, Belickick did not flame out in Cleveland.  Did you read the article you linked, because it actually says the opposite. It makes the case that had he not been stupidly fired by Modell, the Ravens would have had possibly five SB championships. He actually built that team up to be a contender.  When he arrived the team was abysmal, just as they are today.  They were 3 – 13 the year before Bill got there, and went 7-9 his second and third year, and 11-5 his fourth year, a playoff year.  You’d have to go back to 1986 to find a Browns team with as good or better a record.  The following year, Modell announced during the season that he was moving the team at season’s end and the team shut down and went 5-11.  That’s when Bill was stupidly fired.

Parcells gets a lot of credit for a guy that never won anything without Belichick on his staff and has only two SB rings to Belichick’s seven. Anyone who would take the Tuna o er Bill is either just a huge Pats/Belichick hater or doesn’t know the history of these two men as coaches.  Parcells expected Belichick to take over the Jets for him when he quit, yet again, on a team, but Belichick was smart enough to see that the Jets were just another Browns and instead went to the Pats who did not have Brady holding the clipboard when he got there as you stated above.  Sure they had Bledsoe, but he underperformed most of his career.

Since becoming the starter, Brady has missed 19 games.  Belichick’s record in those 19 games is 13-6.  That includes going 11- 4 in 15 games that Brady was out from game one after tearing his ACL, yet, even at 11-5 for the season, the Pats missed the playoffs.  Not sure that shows a weak AFC or even AFCE when an 11-5 team doesn’t make the playoffs.  Yet, Brady has never won a game without Belichick. Brady is great, probably the GOAT, but Bill has built stellar defenses as a position coach/coordinator, and turn **** into caviar in both of his head coaching stints.  He deserves a lot more credit than you are giving him in your post.

En garde.

First off, I did in fact read the link that I posted.  I chose that link to provide the opposite take on the popularly held view (which is mine).  And in it, you will find that the author does acknowledge several factors, and I quote:

  Quote

What if Belichick, wound tighter than a hair braid, had been media friendly? Or if season ticket sales hadn’t decreased in four of his five years there? Or if news hadn’t leaked during the middle of the ’95 season that Modell had negotiated a secret deal to move the team to Baltimore in 1996?

These were defining moments in Belichick’s coaching career. Defining in Cleveland, where he was 37-45 with one playoff win (over, ta-da, the Patriots). Defining in New England, where he is 105-39 with 14 playoff victories.

Belichick made mistakes in Cleveland, enough to alienate veteran players, the Browns’ hyper-loyal fans, the media and ownership. But was it ignorance or arrogance? Inexperience or impatience? Was he simply too smart for his own good?

These passages (from the article I linked) do not suggest a successful tenure.  Again, the analysis is in the eye of the beholder.

Also, while Parcells did not Win a Super Bowl without Belichick (as you mention) he did take New England there, after inheriting a bottom feeder of a team.  He build those Pats from scratch.  That is noteworthy and laudable (and for The Record, I have never been a Parcells fan).  His Patriots simply lost to a superior team.  I find no shame in that at all.  Further, he took the New York Jets to the AFC Championship – as far as that Franchise has gone since Broadway Joe.  Not too shabby either.  In my estimation, that’s plenty of evidence to suggest that Parcells did fine in his career without Belichick.

And I looked it up: Brady & Belichick showed up in New England during the same Offseason.  I was wrong about that.  I admit my error.  But for anyone to suggest that Belichick knew what he was getting in Brady defies reason.  Can we agree that the 6th Rounder was the steal of the Draft?  Sure, but it wasn’t due to any prescience on the Patriots’ part – that’s for sure.  They were fortunate.

As for Belichick’s record without Brady, it is pretty good.  I, for one, consider that an indictment of the awful AFC East (and yes, I do consider that Matt Cassel year quite a feat – I’ll give you that).  For instance, my view of a quality Division is to consider how many teams qualify for The Playoffs from that same Division.  And to a lesser extent, looking at how many teams finish above .500 gives one a true barometer of the strength of any Division.

So what do the Standings tell us?  While I couldn’t find the data I was looking for, here’s a listing of Division Champs since B&B’s time in New England (per Vegas Insider)

  Quote

5990cd006e1d2_AFCEastChamps.thumb.jpg.a2e59a14efa2306372bedea387778616.jpg

So they’ve dominated their Division.  Well, that’s not news.

But this is – here is a quote from the Boston.com article that I had linked to earlier titled The Terrible AFC East Has Been the Fuel Feeding the Patriots Prowess:

 

  Quote

Since the Brady-Belichick Era began in New England in 2001, the Buffalo Bills are a pathetic 83-130, never having a better record than the 9-7 mark they achieved in 2004, good for third place in the division.

Meanwhile, the two teams that have managed to sneak in titles under the Patriots reign haven’t been too successful from an overall standpoint either. The Dolphins are all of 98-115 over the same timeframe, and the Jets are 105-108, the most successful of the bunch with six playoff appearances. At least the Jets have been to the AFC title game, which they lost to the Steelers in the 2010 season. New York is 7-7 in the playoffs over that timeframe, while the Dolphins are 0-2. Their last postseason win came in 2000, a wild card win over then-AFC rivals Indianapolis Colts.

The Patriots have indeed found that key with a 63-18 record within the AFC East since the start of the 2001 season. The Jets are 39-41 over that same period; the Dolphins, 34-48, the Bills, 27-54.

But how much of New England’s success can be attributed to the fact that the Patriots are one of the NFL’s premier franchises, and how much is the simple fact that the AFC East has been a long-running punch line? In short, if the Patriots of the Brady-Belichick era were in any other division, would history look at their greatness so favorably?

This is indeed an interesting article, because this isn’t a dude at The Sporting News, or Pro Football Focus with an issue with the team.  What is most interesting to me about this article (circa 2014) is that it’s published by Boston.com!

So maybe there is some lingering question among the faithful regarding their good fortune.  And that’s my primary point too.

Yes they Win.  Yes they are a Dynasty.  But there have been an awful lot of favorable breaks for those guys.  That cannot be discounted.


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Here we have another poster chiming in

The genius behind the Patriots is it appears first principle theory is applied to many decisions they make.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02505024

Too many organizations and fan bases (Many in here) stick to blanket theories on what’s best for the team, situation, time, and future.

The Patroits can give a damn how things are done or have been done, they make the best roster decisions to help win in the now and flexibility for the future. This isn’t only applied to front office decisions, their weekly game planning operates in the same mold. Who cares about statistics, each game is treated as it’s own entity to provide the best chance to win. They’re aren’t married to a system (a safe norm for coaches), it’s about exploitation of the opponents weaknesses– Whether through spread attack or 40 carries in a game.

They’ve made many cliche driven football media heads look silly with trading players, releasing players, trading draft picks, taking risks on malcontents etc..

All things many in here would lose there mind over, due to it not falling into a safe norm.

Edited  by wit33


This is my brain on drugs. Any Questions?



Here Taylor 36 replies

  On 8/13/2017 at 6:22 PM, Diehard Otis said:

Also, while Parcells did not Win a Super Bowl without Belichick (as you mention) he did take New England there, after inheriting a bottom feeder of a team.  He build those Pats from scratch.  That is noteworthy and laudable (and for The Record, I have never been a Parcells fan).  His Patriots simply lost to a superior team.  I find no shame in that at all.  Further, he took the New York Jets to the AFC Championship – as far as that Franchise has gone since Broadway Joe.  Not too shabby either.  In my estimation, that’s plenty of evidence to suggest that Parcells did fine in his career without Belichick.

And I looked it up: Brady & Belichick showed up in New England during the same Offseason.  I was wrong about that.  I admit my error.  But for anyone to suggest that Belichick knew what he was getting in Brady defies reason.  Can we agree that the 6th Rounder was the steal of the Draft?  Sure, but it wasn’t due to any prescience on the Patriots’ part – that’s for sure.  They were fortunate.

As for Belichick’s record without Brady, it is pretty good.  I, for one, consider that an indictment of the awful AFC East (and yes, I do consider that Matt Cassel year quite a feat – I’ll give you that).  For instance, my view of a quality Division is to consider how many teams qualify for The Playoffs from that same Division.  And to a lesser extent, looking at how many teams finish above .500 gives one a true barometer of the strength of any Division.

Yes they Win.  Yes they are a Dynasty.  But there have been an awful lot of favorable breaks for those guys.  That cannot be discounted.

I edited out some of your post due to the length and kept the parts I want to respond to.  Please don’t think I’m disregarding your other points.

I will say to your point about Parcells and the Pats in the SB and the Jets in the AFC Championship that the year prior to taking the Pats to the SB, Parcells and that Pats team lost to Belichick’s Browns in the playoffs (let that sink in; I’m sure that saying the Browns beat the Pats in the postseason is something that will not be written again any time soon. :) ), and the year the Pats went to the SB was the last season the (original) Browns were in Cleveland.  Belichick was also the DC on the Jets when they went to that AFC Championship game. I’m not trying to split hairs here, and I agree with you that some of this is in the eye of the beholder, but one of the reasons I have felt that Parcells is one of the most overrated coaches is because of these things I’ve mentioned.

I agree that no one knew what they had in Brady.  If they did, they would have been fools to risk waiting to pick in the sixth round.  However, it was Belichick and the Pats that saw something in Brady to give him a chance and bring him in.  There were 198 opportunities for others to do the same, but no one did but Bill. Was it luck? Of course, but, and this also addresses your last point quoted above, every team in NFL history, regardless of how good they are, has had to rely on some luck.  No one wins the SB without having balls bounce their way, injuries either not happening or providing unforeseen opportunities (Brady definitely falls in the latter category), meeting certain opponents at the right time, getting their **** together at the right time, etc.

Again, to each their own, and I leave it at this as to not hijack this thread and continue with a topic that should really be discussed in the ATN forum.  I feel that too many people overlook the job that Belichick did in Cleveland, of all places, and how important/vital a part he was in the success of several other teams.  He has a great resume before having Brady as a starter, and we’ll never know if Brady would have become the QB he is if he wasn’t drafted by and had the opportunity to work with Belichick.  It is just beyond me how anyone can argue that he isn’t one of the greatest to coach the game.


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     “Failures are expected by losers, ignored by winners.” – Joe Gibbs

And here Tsailand offers this comment

  On 8/13/2017 at 4:18 PM, Diehard Otis said:

Yes, he can Coach.  But this all-time great stuff has to stop!  Just like Phil Jackson, this guy benefited from all-time great talent.

He’s had final say on the talent for his entire tenure.  So are you saying that he’s not an all-time great coach, just an all-time great GM?

To which I responded

  1. @Tsailand my position is already laid out (regarding Belichick).  And I do not mean to be flippant with you, but I would refer you back to my earlier posts.

That is what I meant.


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And before this gets any further out of hand, TK (the moderator) steps in

When the **** did this become ExtremePatriots.com?

Hahahahahaaaaa!!

Well, you got me there.  To tell you the truth, in forums it is considered bad form to steer a thread on a particular topic off into another completely different subject.  And to do so intentionally is straight up rude & can lead to repercussions.

That is not what I intended to do.  I merely took the opportunity to vent my opinion on a topic that has stuck in my craw for some time now.  Namely, this talk of Bill Belichick being the greatest Coach in NFL history(!) nonsense.

He’s not.  And I’m not the only one that is sick of hearing that crap.

Buuut since I’m not trying to write a book here, you have my take.  The question is, what’s yours?  C’mon, don’t be shy!  Tell me in the comments below.

 


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